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SNI Digital, Innovations in Learning, an all-new video journal of Neurosurgery and Neuroscience,
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which offers its programs and this program on podcasts on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify.
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In association with SNI, Surgical Neurology, International, and Internet Journal
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are pleased to present another in the SNI Digital series on interviews with clinical neuroscience leaders.
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This interview is with Dr. Abdul Hadi Al-Khalili, who is a widely known Iraqi and world leader in medicine, neurosurgery, culture, and society. Dr. Kalili is former professor of neurosurgery at
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the College of Medicine at the University of Baghdad. consultant and head of the neurosurgery division in specialized surgical hospital in Baghdad, founder and director of the Orbital Surgery Center,
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the first of its kind in the world, in the Arab world, head of neuroscience research, at the College of Medicine Vice Chairman of the Iraqi National Cancer Council and associate member of the Iraqi
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Academy of Sciences, member of the WHO Eastern Mediterranean Regional Office Research Committee, member of the Central Committee for Continuing Medical Education and the Ministry of Health and
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Cultural Attache of Iraq in Washington, DC.
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This is a summation of Dr. Kalili's background written by him. I am a physician surgeon, academic researcher and cultural advocates professional life. has spanned more than five decades across
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clinical medicine, higher education, scientific research, and public service. My career involved under exceptionally challenging historical conditions marked by wars, sanctions, institutional
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disruptions, and yet it remained guided by a commitment to scientific rigor, ethical responsibility, and service to society. I've sought to integrate medicine with culture, education, and
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history, believing that the physician's role extends beyond the operating theater into the intellectual and moral life of the community. The interviewer for this program is James Osmond, who is the
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creator and founder and CEO of SNI and SNI Digital. The former professor at the Universities Minnesota, Michigan, Illinois, and UCLA. former head of neurosurgery at Henry Ford Health Systems in
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Detroit and the University of Illinois in Chicago, a futurist entrepreneur in healthcare consult.
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Okay, well, I'll tell you, first of all, I think it's a real pleasure and honor for me to talk to
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you. You've had an admirable life. I look through all your CVs and your background, and obviously we know each other for some time, and
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I thought we would go through some highlights of the background of your background and ask you some questions about
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the things that were going on, what were done, and what's going on today, and so forth. You've obviously contributed for many years in many ways to civilization, Iraqi society, and
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in medicine,
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and I know that you're regarded as a scholar and a highly respected leader in the countries in the Middle East and beyond. So
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looking at your life, you've accomplished an enormous amount. When I started with looking in your CV, what I didn't see was, and I always like to find out about this, it didn't say where you were
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born in your family, what was your background.
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Well, first of all, thank you so much, Jim. It's a real pleasure and honor to be with you and to be part of SNI.
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It is really a great platform for neurosurgeons and scientists all over the world. And the contribution you have made was really enormous, was wonderful And it has great effect on all the people
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there, people especially. And
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I know that. from first-hand information about our guys in Iraq.
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Thank you very much. We can talk about that as we go, because I know education is one of your major
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commitments in life and we're still doing it. Yeah, sure. Well, I was born in the city, very famous city in the Islamic history It was the capital of Islam at one time. It's called Khufa, just
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south of Baghdad. And I was born in 1943 in 11th of May. And well, I decided as possibly have told you before to be a doctor since I was 11 years of age.
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And I had many hurdles on the way to do that, really real hurdles which could have taken me different pathism
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Can I interrupt you? Can I ask you a question?
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What was in 1943? Well, we were obviously involved in a world in a world war. What was going on in
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the city of your birth and what was your father doing and your mother and how many siblings did you have?
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Well, my father worked as a businessman Originally, our family, the
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Khalilis, they used to, well, their profession was the Islamic Arab medicine inherited from grandfather to father to father, but I am the seventh generation of my family. Or maybe the sixth. My
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son is the seventh generation who is the doctor as well. So here's my mother. Seven generations of doctors in your whole family, right? Yeah, that's right And the family goes back how many years?
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About two centuries?
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Oh, a little bit more than two centuries. Amazing, absolutely amazing. And was that shitty at the time? Was it to have a major significance in Iraq or? And the history is not in the current time
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because justice is just an ordinary town at the moment. But it has a mosque which is supposed to be the fourth important mosque in the Islamic faith. After Makkah Medina and Al-Aqsa So it has some
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significance and many people they come and visit the town for its heritage.
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Then I went to the medical school. After I heard so many hurdles on the way, maybe three or four major hurdles, but I did not well give up. So in the medical school, I finished in 1966
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And I was the top graduate of the. of the of our years. Can I stop? Can I stop you a minute there? Because you know, I don't mean did any disrespect by interrupting you. But but you went one of
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the lectures that you gave and that we've we've we've been together on over the past few years. You two things. One is was your father was a physician. Originally, he was just the Islamic Arab
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physician, but he stopped early. He went to business. You went into business? Yeah. And you mentioned something that I I've never forgotten that I thought was very honest. And that for the
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people watching this program need to hear as the initial foundation, you said, initially, I thought, and maybe I've got my times wrong with you went to medical school. But you didn't get
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initially, you didn't go to that path You didn't you go? engineering or something and then I was forced that to do that. That's part of my head because my marks was just one mark below the lower
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accepted student at the medical school. And then so I was forced to go to the engineering. The night I was there in the engineering class, first class, then one of my colleagues who was sitting
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beside me said that they have opened
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for more students apply. So I went there and then I got applied. Maybe the last student to be accepted at the medical school. And you said that you,
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I think I remember you saying this, that your early years were medicine, were
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not stimulating or not. And so I don't want to tell the story. I want you to tell the story Absolutely. I was intrigued by medicine to be a medicine at the early age because of the relationship,
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the magic, which I call it, relationship with the doctor and the patient, this intimate relationship, which really affected me so much. That's why I came to medicine. So in the first three years,
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anatomy and physiology and chemistry, not that stimulating, and my marks were not the top class marks. But when I went to the clinical, which is the fourth year, we have six years in our medical
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school, the fourth year started clinical, and then I was climbing up until, as I said, I completed in 1966. But you graduated at the top of your class? That's right. Yeah. So the story here is
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that you couldn't get in a medical school initially You got into medical school, it wasn't very stimulating. But as you got more involved in the clinical aspect, it was something that suited you
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very highly, very well, and you excelled at that. Is that correct? Correct, but if you want to know more about the hurdles, what I was the 90th grade in our country,
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you have to go for the national examination. Right. And then that national examination will decide whether you go to the science or you go to humanities. If you fail in science or humanities, you
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can go to commerce. And because of many reasons, I don't want to go into that detail as I failed. So I want to the commerce. And I was heartbroken because I want to be a doctor. Commerce is not
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my business, my work. But nevertheless, I worked hard and I was top of a class in the commerce.
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I was exempted from the final examination. So I was immediately passed to the second class, second grade. But then I went as an external student to lose one year of my life, to go back to have the
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external examination. And then I passed, I went to science again. That's why I could go to the medical school. The reason I asked you about this is 'cause there are a lot of young people who watch
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this and
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they need to understand that other people have had a lot of
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challenges in their life and because of their determination, they've overcome the challenges. And that story that you have is a story where you pursued this, you pursued this and you wound up being
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the top medical school and graduate in your class. Yeah In fact, I have in my room a problem. Poster says, No goal is
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high if you climb with care and confidence. So I followed that, and then Rilio was not affected by anything distracting my path. Is this an Iraqi proverb?
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No, I got it from England. It's a British one. Yeah, the Poster is English with somebody climbing the high
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mountains Okay, so now you finish medical school after all of these things. And
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I'm sure you had the support of your family and so forth. But so what happened after that? Now you're finished with medical school, then what happened? And then we have compulsory military service.
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We have to go to a year and a half, the military service So now you're, it must be 20 years later. 1943 or 1963, is that right? '66, I finished. '66, okay. Yeah, that's right.
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So during that time in the military and the people involved in.
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There was no war. There was no war in my time. But we lived in the military life. But nevertheless, I did some research on the Palaricia And
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Palaricia, that's immaturity causing this over of Palarzia. And then I showed
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the people there, the officers under the microscope, the centrifuge, all the Valarzia and the oven, things like that. And then discovered how many people have Valarzia among the soldiers And when
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I go, I went higher in my work.
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in the military. I proposed a database for all the soldiers' health, and that was very commanded by the leaders of the army at that time. Outstanding. Why did you do that? I mean, this is
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pioneering. That's what you were doing. Yeah. I feel there's something here. I have to get it out all the time.
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Yeah. Outstanding Oh, yeah. And when I was in the medical school, this is the thing interesting. I had great relationship with my professors and went to the extent as a student, wasn't to the
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extent of being friends with them. So at the end of our surgical training, usually the teachers, they get the students in a room without residence just to hear their views about the unit, what's
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going on, there's anything So We were 11 of us, and then everybody talked. But what came to me, I said, we not only learned from you the surgical skills, but we learned the bedside manners and
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how to behave in front of the patient. But excuse me to tell you that your preventable death rate is high here in this unit, and they were shocked. So this is, are you still in the military at
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this time? No, no, I was in the medical school. You're in the medical school? Yes, I want to just to go back to that, yeah. I was finally a student. So the teachers were shocked to have this
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statement from a student, and then it happened that the senior resident was not a good guy, and he was not treating people properly, and then he was dismissed after my talk.
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Yeah, so you're getting to some fundamental principles I'm sure your family background had to do with this. People were in medicine, they respected medicine. They knew what medicine was. I
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honored the patient. You just talked about the bedside manner, which is in your closeness to the patients. And here you come in your middle of medical school, and you say the mortality is too high
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or you're not. So
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I'm sure that was shocking to them, but yet they agreed with you. Yeah, but the chief of the unit,
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Professor Fradil Khosab, his name is, in an interview on the TV, later on, the interviewer asked him, Who is the best student you graduated under your training? He said, You can't point it to
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me. The best student ever graduated under his care That's what we're talking about.
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And you were motivated, this motivation that you have came, you said you decided at age 11, obviously came from family and background in a desire to be the best you can in this field. Is that
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right? That's right, yeah. By the way, we have in our family about 60 Kalilidakh physicians Amazing. Yeah. And my son is associate professor at Georgetown with new neurology and my daughter's
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associate professor in radiology again at Georgetown.
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Okay, we'll come to how the whole family came back here, but that's amazing, amazing lineage And I'm sure in
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the culture in the Middle East. Here's a family that has been highly educated and dedicated for centuries, right? Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. And then we have to go to the compulsory rural
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service area. Compulsory rural. Yeah. It's going for one year. Yeah. Yes. Just to help people who have no access to a physician So in there, I again did a few things. One of them I brought the
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MMR for
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portable X-ray
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for a car to discover about the TB in that area. And that was the first time. I was the first doctor, first physician to go to that city, the rural area. So I brought them for this and then I
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discovered few cases of tuberculosis at that time and sent them for treatment. Also, I created some small surgical unit for minor surgeries. And I did some research on the students from fifth grade
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to ninth grade. Social research on how many times you eat eggs, how many times you drink milk and so forth and gave it to the Department of Sociology at the University of Baghdad at that time. So
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you were not just focused on surgery, neurosurgery or anything like that. You were interested in all the aspects of medicine which are dietary, nutritional. Yeah, that's right. That's social.
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And social, right? How many wives your father has? Okay.
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Yeah. And then while I was there,
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the Ministry of Health said, if you want to cut that year short, you can come either to ophthalmology or ear, nose, and throat.
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And ophthalmology was one of my favorites, because I was the top of class in ophthalmology at that time. And so I came to my professor to discuss this issue with them And as I wanted to be a surgeon,
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this is surgery. They said, why not? At that time, it didn't have anybody, any physician in Iraq, with the fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons, which is the thing in our country always,
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or American board in ophthalmology. So now we're in the 1960s in Iraq, what you're talking about, right? That's right, yes, end of '60s, yeah. OK So I went to ophthalmology, and then I worked
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very hard there. While I was there after doing cataract and the
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glaucoma and suquin surgery, I didn't like the specialty, unfortunately. Although it is a great specialty, but I didn't find that philosophical feeling which I was hoping for. I thought the
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ophthalmologist was basically a scientist rather than physician. He deals with fact, with cataract. He deals with glaucoma. He deals with squint, with cordial problems Not to the psyche of the
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patient. So I completed my time, and then I went to be a practicing ophthalmologist in all of the cities that have my clinic and my surgery is there. Well, then I went to England. And again,
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there in England, I did ophthalmology, because I said I have to practice it in England before I decided to leave it. And I worked with the very eminent professor, Calvert Phillips, who was the
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editor of the British Journal of
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and he was a Manchester, then he became the leader of Talmology in Edinburgh. Can I stop you a minute? No, at that time, or in the 60s, and not Big Dan, to go to England for education was that
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the general trend, or only you could do that. So
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the educational, had not, education hadn't developed to the level that you were looking for, right? Yeah, you have to go to outside. Usually,
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in fact, I applied. When I was in a terminology, applied to many places in a terminology, including Harvard, and Johns Hopkins, and I was accepted in mass and years. They sent me all the forms,
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because I have the ECFMG. I got it, the American license. Four months prior to my graduation from the medical school, I got it in '66.
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passing the clinical and also the English test at that time. There was an examination center in Baghdad at that time. So because I had the ECFMG and they had, I was the top of a class. I was
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immediately sent by Harvard, by my eye and ear, the forms. And they told me about the agenda or training program, six months with the Cataract professor, six months with that. But our leaders
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said, if you go to America, people will forget about you And go to, like us, go to England. So unfortunately, I did not do that. I just pursued their advice. So in England, I did this
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phalmology and then I stayed, that's enough.
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I cannot do that anymore. It wasn't a fulfilling, it didn't fulfill your dreams in medicine, right?
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So at that time, there was in Dandis, Scotland, an opening in the
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neurosurgery.
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And a friend of mine who works in AT there, he spoke to the chiefs there.
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Then they said, Well, we have interviewed the people who could apply for the post. But he said, Okay, just just see him. So I went to see them and then I got the post Mashing? Yeah, so I
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worked with them and they were two great leaders from South Africa. Job lock and Ivan Jipson, they were really wonderful guys, both of them.
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And while I was there, I got my requirements for the fellowship for the
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Royal College of Surgeons. And then I had to do some general surgery and trauma surgery to complete the requirement. and then I got my fellowship in
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1973. After there's a private exam and then to the final exam and the gap between them, I had only 11 months, but some of my colleagues took years to complete the two exams. Now this is a
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fellowship in the - General surgery. In general surgery. Yeah. Okay, so what everybody is seeing is in order to get to the goal you wanted to get to, you had to go down many different roads to
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connect and to get to where you wanted to go. Absolutely, yeah. Okay. Then I went to Leeds in England, in Yorkshire, and then there I had my training, proper training. So I had part of
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training in Dundee in Scotland, and then completed that in
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England, Leeds, and my chief was one of the leaders of
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of the neurosurgery and in that time in fact he was the advisor in the neurosurgery for the British Army at that time
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and so you finished your neurosurgery where? In Elites in England in Leeds yeah and who was who was the professor at the time? Miles Gibson his name is Miles Gibson yeah and there were others of
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course Arthur Wall and David Price. David Price was the president of the British Intensive Care Society. He was interested in intensive care problems and then while I was in Leeds I went to Yajargil
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in Zurich to have training there on micro neurosurgery
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and then I came back to Iraq to work in Iraq and 1976 and of '76.
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And in there,
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I joined two of my colleagues, only the three of us in the country, the chief was Dr. Sadhuri, who was the real pioneer of a neurosurgery in the country, although we had a few others before him,
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but did not last long and then he was the real pioneer and the one dedicated and who had worked very, very hard. So now you get back to Iraq and what was it? What was that year? Was that in the
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70s?
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76. 76. And when you came back to Iraq, there were what, how many neurosurgeons total? Only three. Three of you. Yeah. And the population at that time was a 20 million, 30 million something
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Less than that. Yeah. Yeah. And so only three neurosurgeons. So, Yeah, you, and now you had your full background and all three of you were taking care of that through our 20 or 30 million
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people. Yeah, we had 20, and that's done 20 at that time. But then the number increase gradually. And we reach a stage where we have one in New York's urgent to half a million of people. And
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that matches what was in UK at that time
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In UK, what did New York's urgent to half a million in my time?
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So
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what worked, and then
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I had the interest in orbital surgery because of my background in ophthalmology. So I have to be faithful to that memory. So I started the clinic of orbital surgery one day a week in the Athelby
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hospital. I go there. and get the people from all over the country to come there. In 1979, I went to Germany
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for orbit under Professor Kurt Schurman in mines. Yes. Schurman supposed to be the leader of New York surgery at that time
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in Germany. And then I had the opportunity to do some work on cadavers and something he allowed me, it was very kind to me. While I was there, I went to
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in Hanover to do peripheral nerve surgery, of course.
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So I came back, and then in '19 - we have the war of Iraq, Iran war in 1980 until 1988. We were busy with that. We used to go to the front line to do surgery for this - uh
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and unlucky soldiers, so sometimes we work more than 24 hours non-stop.
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At that time, were there still three of you in neurosurgery? No, no, we had maybe five or six at that time, and we have two military guys, neurosurgeons, and we were maybe four, so altogether
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maybe six or seven So you had six or seven neurosurgeons taking care of a very large population of people. And plus the military.
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And so a lot of war injuries, I would imagine. Yes, absolutely. We had really great experience with trauma surgery at that time
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And in 1990, I went to England to do orbital surgery under your rights.
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who is the
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leader of orbital surgery in the UK in the Moorfields High Hospital. And also I did course in neurophthalmology at the Queen's Square.
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You've been to some incredibly outstanding institutions. Yeah, indeed, yeah, I was really fortunate. Yes. And while I was in England, we did the course with the research with the European
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Cancer Institute, the Borde Institute, of gliomas. And that was very, very important. We started, well, the chord, there are what, 23 centers all over Europe. And ours in Leeds was the only
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center in England. So we used to use the CACNU and then BCNU and then
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metatraxate or with the with the with treatment of glioma at that time.
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And then so now you know we're in the in the year it's after the war so it's after 88 so now you're must be in the 80s or 90s is that right? Yeah, that's right. And so
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let me just stop you here for a second. You've been you now traveled many places in the world for your education.
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Did your did your family members do that or were you one of the first people who had done this? Yeah, they know that yeah but they they at that time when they were not allowed to accompany me when I
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go there it was only me because they were afraid that if I have the family with me they are not cool come back. I understand but when you're your ancestors Where did they receive their medical
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training? My ancestors, as I said, they're Islamic Arab medicine. Okay, Islamic Arab medicine. So you were basically the first in your family. And in my side, but we have three other, more
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senior to me physicians as well. One is a neurologist, one general family physician. The other one is a family physician too But you were the first in the family to travel to other countries for
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further education. That's right. Yeah. And also I want to
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mention that I went to Charles Drake at Lambda Ontario. Incredible. I worked with him as well. Incredible. What effect, I mean, reason I'm bringing this up is
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the opportunity to travel outside your country to all these different countries and not only learn. Did that have an impact on your life? Absolutely, absolutely, of course. In fact, we lived in
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our house as if we were in England, even the kids and then the way we lived. We
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went to Canada and then one of the guys in Canada said But years for Canada in been you've if as family your in behave you, well, there was no culture shock or something. Well, there's a
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lot in
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that statement, but it obviously reflects well on you, but it tells something about what the people in the other countries, what their impression was of medicine and people elsewhere. I mean,
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that's what it would mean to me. And so you were, you and your background and all the culture you had was a Well, it's surprising to them, I assume. Yeah, thank you. And I did not stop on
35:35
neurosurgery only with teaching medical students and teaching residents and board students, Iraqi board students. But I went outside the society. So I had a great connection with different parts of
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society For instance, I gave a talk to the traffic people in the
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country. And there's anyone meeting my keynote, the keynote speech I gave them about the nervous system and traffic, nervous system as a victim or as a cause. It was about one hour talk and
36:16
everybody was there from the leading traffic people all over the country And I did work, promoted the idea of brain death at that time. It was not very well known in the country. And I went to the
36:34
major clergy of Shia, of Cindy, of Christian, of Sabi, of others to get their views before I talked to the people about it. And then I did so many lectures on that issue just to make people aware
36:48
that the brain death is something to be really considered in the definition of death So you're not only concerned about medicine, ophthalmology, establishing an eye surgery center, but you're
37:03
concerned about the health of the society and nation and people. Yeah. In fact, I
37:14
had a book now about 450 pages of my initiatives from 1966 and 10 now, and it's going to be published, it says something.
37:27
There are so many strategic things important to the general health of people, to the general scientific basic knowledge of the country, of the nation, and there are so many other things, many,
37:42
many things in that book, about the '90 initiative. What was driving you to do? I mean, you could have been like your family, but it's a little different background, different time. You could
37:56
have gone into general family medicine and so forth, but it's almost like you're driven to keep progressing and getting into various different things. Here you're talking to a civil group involved
38:09
in traffic. It's obviously related to all the injuries you see to the nervous system and how important it is and so forth. What was driving you? Well, I don't know. There's something there which
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I cannot stop. I think that's it. Even if
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I go in holidays. I have to use some time to do some something. And the other thing I was involved in the computer science,
38:36
I used to stop my clinic for seven weeks to make about four hours delayed to go for a course on computer. And then I had a lot of work on computer and then I had a student in 1985 I supervised with
38:55
Shelly, I rejoined for vision with the professor of computer science. We both supervised that when diagnosing back pain on the computer 1985,. Master's students got that.
39:08
Incredibly ahead of your time. That's what it says to me. So in the meantime, were you head of neurosurgery in one of the universities in Baghdad? Yeah, that's the major university, but the fact
39:25
that.
39:27
when did you when did you take that position
39:32
when I went back on 76 but in 1988 I got the professorship
39:39
degree so even though he became professor you continued to pursue things to educate yourself and also educate others absolutely learn into new areas like computer science so forth and so on right yeah
39:54
and in library the science in fact the library society they gave me special event they gave me distinction award on my her service in libraries and same thing the computer science association they
40:10
gave it for special event they gave me distinction award of my services in computer
40:18
outstanding very career outstanding
40:23
And then, I think
40:26
1999, I created in the summer holiday. I got the students from second grade to the sixth grade. And on the holiday, to get them for research group, that the best, the cream of the students,
40:42
about 60 of them. I got them there and led them to do research in four categories, computer, clinical research, or epidemiology, and lab work. Now, you said it was in the sixth grade, the way
41:01
we mean the term. From the medical school. In the medical school, sixth grade. It was from the second grade to the sixth grade. Okay. Cream of the school, they came, really very interested in
41:12
my initiative and they did. And these were the leaders now, the the and US UK.
41:19
because they were so eager to be, to learn.
41:24
How are you, you're doing many pioneering things?
41:31
And in your whole career, and now you come back to Iraq, and you could have stayed in England. I mean, what?
41:57
It was very tempting, yeah. Yeah, why didn't, why did you go back to Iraq? Well, I felt committed, really, to help my people. Absolutely right, absolutely right We had a, well, just make a
41:57
note here, I wanna talk about you, but we had a postgraduate education program, one of the, and that was at that time, what happened as many physicians were leaving, the lower income in the part
42:06
of the world and they were migrating to the higher income areas of the world, and so it was a brain drain. You remember the term brain drain that happened. And we didn't like that. We would travel
42:21
around the world. And so we accepted people who were trained in neurosurgery. So they'd already been trained in their country. They would come and stay with us for up to two years. A 95 of them
42:33
went back. Yeah. Which because we didn't want to take the people from the country, we wanted them to come back, which is why you went back. Yes, right, yeah The other thing you may not know,
42:46
or you know about that, I'm not sure, I thought that the professional degree is not enough for me. So I have to have academic degree. And I joined Bradford University in England to do
43:02
master of philosophy. I saw that, I didn't know that. Management philosophy, what was your thesis?
43:10
My thesis was on the sequelae of head injury in children Sequel, I have had entries in children. And then when I finished the thesis, my supervisor was the dean of the post-graduate studies at the
43:23
university, Professor Turner. And when I finished the thesis presented to him, as Amfield said, he's good for PhD. And he spoke to the Senate, and the same thesis was changed to PhD. Oh, is
43:39
that right? I just want it absolutely wonderful. Yeah, but when I sat for the exam at that time, they wanted a few things to change, and to have another, to release it in three months time. So
43:53
when I went to Iraq, there was the Iraq-Iran war, and they couldn't leave the country. Right, right, right. So I got them colloquially. Amazing accomplishment. So now, it's the wars over,
44:04
you're into the 1990s, and now you're even further, is that when you got into the computer science, or was it during the war? Computer Science from 1982. I stuck. Me too. No, no, no, no.
44:18
Yeah. So now you're back in Iraq and you're head of the department and you're doing all these things. And the question I asked you is, and you're really, this is true across cultures. You're
44:33
pioneering and introducing new ideas. Did you have resistance? No, of course, uh-oh, I love it. And I think that the people listening to this and seeing this, how do you deal with that, Fadi?
44:46
How do you, do you get, do you, was it discouraging? How do you overcome that?
44:54
Not discouraging, no, I just go around it. You just keep, just go around it, just keep at it. Keep at it, yes. So I get back to your early days when you, when you, when you missed getting
45:08
into medical school by a point and you continue to pursue after engineering medical school and so forth and so on, nothing was going to stop you. you're going to get to be the best year class and
45:19
you keep doing that. That's been a character trait all the way along. Is that right? Yeah. In fact, in 1990, when I was with Charles Drake, the Gulf War going to start. But I was with my
45:36
family and the old temptation to stay there, but we came back to Iraq and towards the last airplane to arrive to Baghdad, we were in And in 1981, I was doing my thesis in England. And then I went
45:52
back, again, the last plane, the last plane, because of the Iraq-Iran war then. So determined to go back to really to help people. But as you know very well that in 1924,
46:09
I was kidnapped. Why?
46:13
Because I think One of the reason is I created a big
46:19
association to help Iraq culture and what you call it, and
46:26
health and
46:35
I forgot the name anyways. For that society had about 27 dignitaries Each one of them is really something in his specialty. So he's a
46:49
leader. At a leader, absolutely. And for instance, I got the best historian in the country,
46:59
the best professor of surgery in the country, and the best sign politician, a moderate politician in the country, about 27
47:12
of them. They were the cream of the society, and we had a big event, and it was the president of the society. We had a big event in one of the hotels there, about 400 people attended, and that
47:25
was really, I think, triggered something about the kidnapping. They didn't want, after the occupation, they didn't want this so many groups of criminals. They didn't want things to go in the
47:41
right direction But this is not an isolated issue, it happens in countries around the world, isn't that true? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And people reach prominent positions, and they're
47:55
advocating things that may be a change from which the others believe, and they're not as worldly as you are And you go from being a member of a society to a target that.
48:10
is upsetting the balance, is that correct assumption? Absolutely, yeah, yeah. In fact, if anything, when I was with the kidnappers, they wanted ransom of half a million dollar. At that time,
48:22
that's a lot of money. At that time, and they was laughing, you said, Look, I'm just a name. I have nothing to do with money, sorry.
48:32
So at then they ended, when they released me, they accepted30, 000
48:38
So I was really upset in my done, I thought I was worth half a million minutes ago, but now this guy doesn't work more than 30. Just let him go.
48:50
That's all you were worth.
48:54
So then I was forced to leave the country. We came to Canada to stay there for some time. And then I was offered at few occasions to be the Minister of Health there, but I'm sorry,
49:07
my health doesn't help.
49:09
And then there was an opening to be cultural latache in
49:16
Canada or the US, but the Minister of Higher Education was a friend of mine, he said, You go to the US. At that time, I didn't have the license from the US. But I got the license in 2008 from
49:34
the state of Maine at that stage I saw that. I said, How did he get to Maine? And that's how you did it because you got a medical license, okay? Yeah, Maine was the only state at that time in
49:48
2008 to accept training in
49:54
the UK. Incredible. It took about two years to end the throat to get all the paperwork. Did you have to live in Maine for a while? Just visits, couldn't have been. How do you do it by visiting?
50:04
But your locus at that time was in Washington as an attache? That's right. So I thought helping Iraq with the support of US. education and health is a noble path, perhaps. So I worked really very,
50:23
very hard when I was there by
50:28
the conferences I got 300 Iraqi distinguished professors and professionals get together and hosted by the National Academies
50:39
in Washington. And I got that everything for free because I knew they're the
50:45
CEO of the National Academies that are calling laser.
50:52
And then I had a big conference in the library of Congress where I got hundreds of dollars.
51:01
organizations and NGOs, Americans, to get together to see who is doing what, so there is no duplication and one can help the other. That confidence was for one day, and it was interesting that
51:16
the cost of that haul, which we are in about10, 000, and I got it for free, because I knew
51:21
the chief
51:24
of
51:26
the section there, and then one can see that the video of that confidence on the Library of Congress website, up to now, it's there.
51:38
And many
51:40
other events I did, about 20 events, most of them linked with the American universities to keep the standard in a good status, and we have the students, the scholarship students
51:57
That's what we're doing. What age were you when you had to leave Iraq
52:04
when they captured you and then your family ransomed you
52:09
and then what age were you then? Well, it was 2004 and was 43, so it was about 50 years, 51. So you were 43 years old at the time? No, no, I was born 43. So it is about 51 So you were 51, 51
52:30
years old, maybe
52:33
61. Yeah. So that must have been a major crushing blow in your life to have to leave Iraq after you'd so much of your time to build a country and to improve the country. That must have been a very
52:49
difficult decision to make, but you had no choice Yeah. But really, the thing which really hurt me more is the center of orbital surgery, which I created 2002. And it was really center of
53:05
excellence. It's all computerized. Everything is computerized. And the Minister of Health, if there is any visitor, comes to Iraq to visit the hospital center. And Iraq, he brings them to my
53:17
department, to the orbital surgery
53:23
center. We can't - Sorry No, we have a talk about the orbital surgery center. Many of the people are looking at this, haven't heard about it. What is this orbital surgery center? And it's the
53:34
first, and it's the only one still in the world, isn't that correct? I'm not sure. There are, of course, departments of oculoplastic surgeries all over the place. But a center dedicated only
53:48
for orbital surgery, I think it is, it's not matched in the Middle East anyway, in the region, but outside I'm not sure. But there was something unique about it in that it's multi-specialty, am
54:01
I all right? That's right. Yeah, we have my amazon official surgeon, we have ENT surgeon, plastic surgeon, but of thalmology I can deal with, of thalmology I can go to the orbit from the
54:14
conjunctiva, from above, from below, so that was no problem But it was not only oral surgery, it was also orbital medicine, is that correct? Yes, that's right, yeah. Oh here, and this
54:27
said you establish this, what was the year you established this?
54:32
2002, it was open, but the orbital services, as I said, from the 70s I started that. In the 70s, so this is way ahead of its time, way ahead of its time There were people around the world who
54:44
had established neuroscience institutes, right?
54:50
Not many, I was probably one in Spain. By Dr. Overdoor, there was one in Chile, there was one in Mexico that we had maybe someone here that Mayo Clinic or the Leahy Clinic,
55:07
but this was a multi-specialized
55:13
area of medicine. That was way ahead of its time.
55:17
Is that correct? I have developed, well, improvised one surgery for the hydrostatic cyst, and one procedure to explore the orbit from above. And I have this on a video on my YouTube channel.
55:34
Yeah. So now we are what you've done is you, at age 50, you couldn't stay in your country anymore because you were kidnapped, you left, abroad, you got a medical license in the United States,
55:49
incredible what you went through, became an attache to the Iraqi embassy in the United States, and we're still doing everything you could to help the people in your country. And from what I
56:01
understand throughout the Middle East, is that correct? Yeah. Well, when I applied for the provostorship, my six papers were distributed to the Arab jurisurgents, I think, to Europeans. And
56:15
one of the Arab jurisurgents in
56:19
Qasralidhi, an ancient university, he said, in writing, and I have
56:33
that, his handwriting, that is well forefront of the Middle East surgeons. We are proud of him Let me ask you, let's go with a little bit about philosophy. One of you were married and before
56:42
before we get into the philosophy. You were married, and how many children do you have? You and your wife were married when? Can I just finish with that? Sure, go ahead, sure. After that
56:52
conference, which I had 300 Iraqi academic professionals, I created just a group of, I called it together for Iraq. And in that, I had 42 committees of different things, from medical committees,
57:11
about 15, and then in law and art and everything. And each committee has another committee in Iraq, just to match that, and they communicate between each other. But when I got retired, I created
57:27
a society again with leading figures from Iraqi American professors, and then continued to help Iraq through that
57:40
committee And that was, again, the President of that country. society. We had a journal for three years.
57:48
Well, it was a Congress peer-reviewed journal, and we have many distinguished people published there. And I was the chief editor and then the editors with me were really fantastic guys there. I,
58:03
I, I, I, I, it was, I don't know if this is the committee or this is something different. But when we were together, some things over the past years, you, you mentioned you, you were having
58:16
a meeting with the health ministers of many countries throughout the Middle Eastern region in an effort to boost healthcare and all the aspects of, of health in other areas. Exactly. That was not
58:32
exactly with the Health Minister, but that was in the health committee of the one organization, WHL.
58:41
Okay. I was a member in that committee in Cairo, based in Cairo, so I used to go there and then in there I used to talk about what I have. So you were trying to make everybody aware of the and
58:58
help lead in those organizations also, right? And one of the main topic really is what I call targeted medical research because our medical research is done for the sake of promotion, academic
59:10
promotion only. So what I wanted to do is to combine the health problems of the country to have the research on
59:19
that problem. So to get promotion and to get at the end of the results of your thesis and thesis of others to help strategy for the country. And so that's terrific. Let me ask you some
59:35
philosophical questions. Why is your the greatest satisfaction in life.
59:42
Well, I was asked by this question before my release, something which I satisfied with and then proud of, my answer was the gift of
59:55
God to be able to help others.
59:59
That is the gift of God to be able to help others. How do
1:00:04
that's right down my line, that's just outstanding. What's your greatest disappointment?
1:00:12
What's going on in Iraq now, politically? But in spite of the difficulties in Iraq now, which is disappointing, there are people who are doing wonderful work with these young guys, you know, of
1:00:27
the neurosurgeons, the young neurosurgeons, and that reflects on other parts of the society. Really, one is a crowd of these young people who are doing amazing things beyond imagination and all
1:00:38
aspects of life in Iraq.
1:00:41
and these are really the hope of the future. Well, we met and we've had an SNI digital presentations by a number of the Iraqi neurosurgeons, quite a number of them. I think most of whom you were
1:00:58
involved in their training because we didn't cover this point, but after the war,
1:01:06
you spent a lot of time developing neurosurgery there, many of these people you personally trained when you were head of the medical school, they're very indebted to you. They admire you greatly.
1:01:17
And
1:01:19
some of the things they've done are outstanding. I mean, just extremely creative, very hardworking, very innovative people, but people don't know this. And but they've done a great job and a
1:01:35
tribute goes to you for standing with me So all my colleagues, this is the. to come sad and others really worked hard to have this guy's trained well at our time. Okay.
1:01:50
I think that's terrific. So now, how old are you now?
1:01:56
Now I'm 82. 82?
1:01:59
Yeah. But I work on the computer every day about eight hours
1:02:05
I'm 88. So anyway, that's outstanding. That's outstanding. As you turn around and look at the world today, what's going on that's good? What do we need to do? What's going on that's
1:02:22
disappointing?
1:02:24
Well, the real disappointment is medicine is not really that spiritual profession now It has a lot of business touches and there is some, unfortunately. and necessary investigations, and even
1:02:42
unnecessary surgeries. Absolutely right. Yeah. And do you think this happens in the United States? I can tell you that. Oh, I love the place, I think. You think it's all over everywhere. All
1:02:56
over the place, all over the place, I think. And you think the incentive to this is monetary? Yeah, that's right. So is the problem that we've introduced, is the problem that we've introduced
1:03:09
money to medicine or is the problem that people have culturally changed? They're more.
1:03:17
I think
1:03:24
in English. Sorry. No, they're more self-centered or something. Is it a change in medicine or is it a change in the culture? I think change in the culture. I agree. Because for instance, in a
1:03:31
US here and then in Iraq, these days, there are business people who run the medical services. They hire doctors and then they want money, they want a reward, financial reward from whatever way
1:03:48
you deal with
1:03:51
your patient. And you know in here these are big systems, health systems and their umbrella, there are so many hospitals and they have to give 20 minutes for the patient for instance or 15 for the
1:04:06
old patient and so forth That was not the case in our time, you give all the time to your patient and you make the patient feel that you are there for him. I totally agree with you. At the time
1:04:24
when you were practicing in Iraq, was this done on a,
1:04:31
obviously you didn't receive her salary Obviously, you had to make your living from your practice, is that correct? No, we got to government salary. The system in Iraq that you work in the
1:04:41
morning, or daytime, in your university or hospital, and then you have clinic in the evening. But this is true. This is true in many countries of the world to do that. You're right, your
1:04:54
government service in the morning, and then the afternoon and evening, you work for the clinic or the operating room, right? So, and actually, how did that work out? Do you think that was a
1:05:04
very good system at that time for the problems they had?
1:05:09
Well, it was okay for me because I used to work only four days a week. I make two days for the old patient and two days for the new patients. And I have six staff in my clinic, private clinic,
1:05:22
two on the computer because I have computer system. In the clinic, documenting all the patient's notes and the x-rays, taking picture of the x-rays. And then so it was working for me, okay,
1:05:36
because I. thing seriously of my work in the morning and they take care of my patients in the afternoon. But some of my colleagues, they work five days a week or six days a week. And their clinic
1:05:50
is basically for services. But I make it for both services and for potential research background for, I can't study my cases in details later on What would be your advice, looking at the younger
1:06:07
people today, around the world? Because I'm assuming, and you tell me if I'm right or wrong, that the younger people around the world are suffering similar problems. What's your advice to them?
1:06:24
Well, they need really basically a role model to look at, just to
1:06:31
be like that person or at least on that path. And the role models are not So, many of these days, which the one you are dreaming of, and I'm dreaming of. My advice
1:06:49
is really to consider the patient as a patient, not as a number, or as a
1:06:56
case notes, or whatever. The patient is a human being, and then a smile with the patient in front of the patient will really comfort him, and then rather than just doing things quickly without
1:07:10
making him feel that you are for him. So you need really to make the patient feel that you are there as if you are only for him, and you care for him, and you listen to him.
1:07:26
Which is not that easy these days, unfortunately I've seen it here in the US with our family physician.
1:07:37
I said, Lady, she is really wonderful. She can stay with us for as long as it needed. And she works at, I don't want to make
1:07:48
promotion for
1:07:51
the company she works for. But she is, she's the only one I have seen these days doing this. And by the way, she is Egyptian in origin. She's American, yeah Interesting, you know. And it's
1:08:06
true, exactly true in our country right now. And you're saying, It's true or you're seeing it and it's true
1:08:16
around the world. Is that right? I think so. Yeah. The good that I hear about in Canada and in
1:08:24
UK, friends, I have. They say that probably is the same trend.
1:08:33
Maybe because of shortage of doctors or some other reasons, but still you feel that it's obligation for the physician to really care about the patient's psyche, not only his disease. And then treat
1:08:47
the patient as a patient, not as a disease. Right, there's a neurology professor I had who said, treat the patient, don't treat the disease. Absolutely, yeah. And people misunderstand that.
1:09:01
But he just
1:09:03
said what you said, that seems exactly right Yeah, outstanding, just an outstanding life, outstanding accomplishment. What are you looking forward to? You're 82, you're still, you're eager,
1:09:18
you're doing things,
1:09:21
what are you doing next? Well, I've now completed the book of my trip in the neurosurgeonial life, which is going to be published, I hope, in a few weeks.
1:09:36
And I completed the book about initiatives, which I told you about. And I have so many plans, non-stop. Actually, I always have things to do, right? Yeah, I gave them, but sorry, I'm giving
1:09:50
the talks a lot, maybe about 20 talks so far on this room, different groups, about culture, about young
1:10:01
academics in England And for instance, one of the best talks I have given, supposedly they call it, and then they rated as number one. For the year, I gave a talk about deliver in the culture and
1:10:16
medicine,
1:10:18
because in our country, in our culture, liver is considered in the past. And now, more important than the heart and the brain, because when you say about your children, you are my liver.
1:10:35
And that has a basis to the Sumerian time, which I dig to the history and the gods from the Sumerian time, and then going back to all the cultures, it is almost the same. What is the liver
1:10:47
symbolized? It symbolizes the energy, metabolism, the central.
1:10:54
They used the Sumerian. They used it first to speak to
1:11:02
the gods Then any changes in the anatomy of the liver, they can get some ideas and give the king and they're okay to go to the battle or no, or get married or no, or somebody will march and will
1:11:21
bring them the sheep to get the liver and then shall he go that for that project or not I'm going to ask you one final question. You've done a wonderful - wonderful experience for people to see and
1:11:36
to hear.
1:11:39
As you look back on life and you see what's changing, you've lived 82 years in the world, many changes you've seen, many places in the world, and you look forward to the future. What's your
1:11:54
greatest concern and what's your best advice?
1:11:59
Well, by concern, like many people these days, about the technology is going into the human life.
1:12:08
Specifically, the AI was going to happen there. And I remember Richard Hawking from England, was to say the most dangerous thing in the future of human being is the AI.
1:12:21
As much as it's good, it's bad because to me, I think everything is good, is a thing of bad. The more good it is, the more bad can be outstanding you're very it's very prophetic because There's,
1:12:35
we have some, some interviews on SNI digital about, about just that subject. It's called, it's the technocrats who are driving us toward a technocracy. In other words, everything is gonna be
1:12:52
computerized or digitized or robotized. One of them even came out recently and said, Your breath's friend is gonna be a robot. I think that's just totally misplaced I
1:13:04
don't think he'll be a friend. He'll be a master in the future. If it's done that way, yes. Yeah, I think that's true.
1:13:12
So that concern is my concern, I agree with you, and it's a worry, okay? And so what's your advice then to the world about what you would do after having lived 82 years and seen all these things
1:13:27
and contributed to this anxiety?
1:13:34
I think you remember that you are a human being and remember to treat people like you want them to treat you and then be honest with your work as much as you can
1:13:49
and when you go back when you go to bed
1:13:54
you put your head on the pillow you shouldn't have any worries of what you have done wrong that day. So you do the best you can during the day and then sleep peacefully.
1:14:08
Outstanding. As you were,
1:14:11
as I asked you the question, one of the things in the back of my mind and I've talked about this a lot is do one to others as you would want done into you. That's just what you said.
1:14:22
And be grateful for every day you've got and our mission, as Einstein said, and as you've practiced, our goal is to make
1:14:33
Yeah, you were going to ask me about my siblings. Yes. Yeah, well, I have, in my family, we are 13, seven girls, seven sisters and six boys. Wow, 13. Yeah. 13, are they all still in Iraq
1:14:53
or? No, none of them in Iraq, no, in fact, all of them are out outside. Amazing Yeah, and my second in line, my brother, he was professor of electrical engineering in Canada. And he retired
1:15:11
now, and the other one is a lawyer from the other PhD in agriculture from Davenport Trinity College in Dublin. And the other in Kotlin Commerce got his degree. So they all are well-educated guys
1:15:29
And then, as I said, my children are one. The eldest girl I have is an English graduate, and now she's working with the disabled people here in Washington. Oh, it's there. But experts and
1:15:45
others are, as you said, and Georgetown University with. And in fact, I have to give the credit to my wife, of course. Absolutely. My wife, in one of the meetings in the Library of Congress,
1:16:02
I have it on the video and
1:16:07
my YouTube channel.
1:16:12
That lady in that organization, she said, his wife must be an angel to cope
1:16:20
with his effort with his being away from the house, even if he's in the house, but he's away from the house. And she's a qualified librarian,
1:16:32
and she was in charge of a research center in Baghdad University and she helped me great deal in my work and my writing in Arabic and English because she is a graduate from English literature.
1:16:48
Well, I'll tell you, it's all wonderful. I want to thank
1:16:53
you for spending the time. You're an example for people
1:17:00
and physicians around the world. You've achieved that goal. You've determination, which you had continued to have, has led you to help people around the world and in your country. And what you've
1:17:13
done is to be admired. Thank you. Well, Jim, I have to say, I look at your real role model with your dedication, with your help of the needy, of all over the world, these African countries,
1:17:29
Middle East countries and other countries. and your full-time dedication. This is beyond my imagination at this age. You are still doing so many magnificent things and coping with the technology
1:17:46
nowadays and making things easier for people to grasp the updates in all aspects of science and neuroscience specifically. So thank you for what you are doing on behalf of the world Well, thank you
1:18:00
very much. I think what we should do is another time we should talk on the phone and see what maybe there's some things we could do together to bring some focus on
1:18:14
the chaos that's going on and the self-centeredness and
1:18:20
get the good parts of religion back into people's lives. Yeah, it's gonna be my pleasure to be with you. We'll look forward to that. And I finally thank you, Hadi, thank you very much. Thank
1:18:33
your wife, thank your family, and we appreciate your contributing as much as you have to society. Thank you so much. Okay. You're part of the few evidence. All right, all right, thank you.
1:18:46
Okay. These are selected references from Dr. Kalili's career. Use a screenshot to copy them for your records.
1:18:57
In this first set of references, as you copy them out by using screenshots, note is diverse involvement in many fields of medicine. Orbital high-distant cysts easier and safer removal. Brain
1:19:14
abscess is an Iraq, comparison of CT, MR imaging, and the histological diagnosis of brain lesions. Multiple intracranial high-dabtidosis. Measurement of a normal cell, a measureable of the
1:19:25
satellite-side dual diameter the spine. CNS tumors in Iraq over 10 years.
1:19:34
Another reference slide, spinal cord grafting,
1:19:41
a present mutation made in 1999.
1:19:48
Osteoclastoma of the spine, determination of aluminum levels in patients with central nervous system diseases, way ahead of its time in 2002. The value of skull x-ray and the early management of
1:20:02
head injury in 1989. Computer EEG analysis for a prediction of epileptic seizures in 1989, multiple thresholding algorithm for the prediction of epileptic seizures, again in '89, high data disease
1:20:20
can be controlled. Servergospinalosis,
1:20:25
spinal cord regeneration, new experimental approach, 1988.
1:20:32
This third set of references, the value of CT scan and orbital high-dantin, pain and surgery, experimental concussion, granulosis, cell tumor and pregnancy into another specialty, computer
1:20:47
analysis
1:20:52
of inter cranial pressure measurement, 1976, and prognostic factors in ruptured berry aneurysms and also 1976. Incredible.
1:21:03
We hope you enjoyed this presentation.
1:21:07
Views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the author or interviewee
1:21:13
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1:21:25
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